Hello folks i am taking Comparative Religion as one of my class. In one of my assignment i have to write about "Sati" practices. Have anyone wrote/debated about this sati ritual: The burning of Widows.

please give me a hand to it.
Do you consider the "sati" ritual expression of the true sacrifice or not?
Would you be for or against the legislation that would allow the sati ritual?
How would you react if the Indian/Hindu woman would do the sati ritual here in the United States?
Would this action be illegal or the expression of the freedom of belief (First Amendment)?

Also is this practice done in Nepal too?
When was the last recorded practice done in Nepal?
How did this practice ended up in Nepal that seems to have originated among the Rajput caste in Rajasthan.

Historically, sati is not unique to India. In the north Indian state of Rajasthan, it came to be associated with  the people of the warrior Rajput caste, who viewed sati as the extreme expression of marital valor (Harlan 1994: 80).  Although the practice of sati has been virtually non-existent elsewhere in India after the British banned it in 1829, about forty cases have taken place since India's independence in 1947.  Twenty-eight of these cases have occurred in Rajasthan, mainly around the Sikar district (Oldenburg 1994: 191).

The last recorded was on 4 Oct, 1987 in the village of Deorala near Jaipur in Rajasthan, Roop Kanwar, a 18 year old bride of less than 8 months mounted the funeral pyre of Maal Singh, her 24 year old husband who died after committed suicide after repeatedly failing his medical school entrance examination. 

Much appreciated

aba sabai tha raicha ta k khana sodhi ra ta...j bhaye pani arkako homework garana chai m.u.j.i sajha ma log in garya hoina hai...

In Hindu myth, the reincarnation of Goddess Parvathi as Lord Shiva wife ..  resource from many ancient verses, one of the vast mythology depicted from  Devibhagavata Purana ko kitab.....

 

Supreme Lord Brahman or in the Deva Loka government  as Daksa has a princess name SATI. Princess Sati in the Deva Loka period is wellknown for her grace wellness, decent charactors and such a  loyal obidience  was married to Lord Shiva, the Stri-/Santa/Rudra. Being Lord Shiva living in poverty, drunken, smell of ash and no possesing of jewellery and gold ornaments in the Deva Loka moment of times, has made Daksa verbaly degraded HIM and this was heard by HIS consort  Sati .Come to her action in defence and behold of her husband prides, Sati immediately without hesitation drown / commit-suicide in fire. Being Sati  Her-Self as divine Goddess, Sati was born again in reincarnation of Himavan Princess as Mena , better known as Menaka and then profoundly named as Parvathi/Santa/Shiva Shakti.... imparting to this loyal action without question and prejudice and also total surrender onelself to her beloved- husband being her wholehearted one`s, this makes an divine example spirit of a holy nuptial relationships of a shreemathi to her husband becomes ways of faith in some ardent Hindus follower at this  modern age back from its "past and leelas"....

 

( Dowson, 1953:86-87,Liebert, 1976:215) -  "Devibhagavata Purana"

* liberately widow in off whites Saree`s ain`t just enough ...

"the expression of the freedom of belief" does suicide come under this? Is it legal to die when you want?

'Right to live' is considered  'freedom' . What about right to die?

If one can have right to die, then Sati will automatically be legal, acceptable.


You can include this in your assignment.. but do not forget to reference it as

Copycat Parody, 2010. Novel approach of managing population growth: Right to Die.  Redefining Rights and Freedom. Genuine Printing Press, Nepal. p112-126.

Thank for the reply so far and especially thanks to natyavaruval for some insight into origin of sati.
Same goes to copycat for his analogy regarding the U.S Constitution(First Amendment).

Now here's my question.
1. Do anyone know if there's any sati ritual committed or performed in Nepal?
2. Who is to be accredited for bringing this ritual in Nepal cause regarding to my study this practices are
done in Rajasthan.



My lecturer points to me if sati is also prevalent in Nepal and i have very little info. on this issue.
She is really fascinated by Nepal and the prevailing religion co-existing in the country especially when
she highlighted the class that Lord Buddha was born in Nepal though the book has imprinted in northern India.

There was some Hindi movie that Sati exist in Nepal. So is this true?
Thank you

Crazyhorse,

I remember 2 examples from our history.

one is associated with King Mandev and her mother. After the death of his father and king Dharmadev, new king Mandev stops his mother from going sati (सती जानु ). 

I assume that u have heard of very famous(infamous) curse in nepali history. सती को सराप

when kaji Bhim malla was killed by then king kathmandu ( i don't remember the name of the king), his wife cursed Nepal before going sati ( this is making me laugh....hehehhe).

I don't exactly remember when this practise was out-lawed in nepal. I think, it is early in राणा शासन.

I believe, royals or close to royals of different eras of nepali history had practiced sati. Bahuns and Chhetris (not trying to be racist here) were the most to practice that ritual.

 

 

 

 

 

CrazyHores, you are wellcome too, hopefuly your tesis and task given had already in stout draft now......wish u gud luck!!

here is some nifty pic -  subtle to ur deems as a nick nack fringes and pleasure for allzz perhaps...... 

 

 

 

 

The presence of non-Sanskrit speaking in the Kathmandu Valley since long before its Lichchhavi takeover around the first century AD is now generally recognized. The Department of Archaeology is currently excavating an ancient Kirati religious site near Kwalakhu in Patan. Existence of several non-Sanskrit place names, administrative, office titles, river names in Lichchhavi inscription is generally cited as proof of developed state of the valley during the Kirat rule.

The bulk of the material contained in the Puranas was established during the reign of the Guptas (320-500 CE ).
In the Vishnu Purana, it is mentioned that the "chatur-varna" or four class social system was absent among the Kiratas in Kiratdesa in the east and the Yavanas(Greek) and Kambojas(Iranian), etc. in the pashchima or west. (Vishnu Purana, 2.37). This clearly shows that Kiratdesa(Nepal) did not have any vedic culture up to this point. The chatur-varna that ultimately resulted in caste discrimination hence entered Nepal after the arrival of Lichchhavi from northern India in around 300 AD

Since no one was able to answer the question on how the sati practiced came to exist in Nepal, we can correctly assume that this practice was brought by the Lichchhavi. And with reference to example given by Obama about the ritual during King Mandev, there's no doubt that along with "chatur-varna",
the sati came to exist in Nepal after arrival of Lichchhavi.

Another question, when was this practice outlawed in Nepal. In India, the practice of sati was banned by the British in 1829.
Also Nepal was a sovereign nation and there was no British governing Nepal then. So any idea how this ritual dissapeared from Nepal scene?

Now coming back to Buddhism, does anyone have the idea about the Mahayana Buddhists?
If yes could you please explain to me how the Mahayana Buddhists understand emptiness(sunyata)?

Has anyone read about Dalai Lama?
What principles of Buddhism is the Dalai Lama applying to the modern world?

Much appreciated

CrazyHorse,

I think SATI was outlawed in nepal during chandra samsher's rule. He had outlawed slavery(kamara-kamari Pratha) too. So it is sometime between 1970-1980 BS. I am preety sure that SATI pratha was in practice till that time as one of my great-grand aunt has done so. What i have noticed is not all widow were supposed to practice that. It was more of choice for the widow. Many widows with younger kids had chosen to stay alive and had taken care of their kids. Those widows without kids were more inclined or forced by society to follow their husband's path.

About the origin of Sati Pratha in nepal, what i believe is, this ritual is in fabric of hindu culture. So i agree with yr view that this practice has entered nepal with the Licchavis ascending to the thorne of Nepal or at least came in wide spread practice after their rise in power. I don't mean to say Kirantis were not Hindu. The BIRUPAKCHYA which u can see in Pashupati was itself made in the times of First Kiranti king Yalambar. Kirantis, still being Hindus, had a lot of unique rituals and practices. They may not have practiced Sati.

With the rise of Gupta vansha in india, Licchavis were forced out of vaishali (a place near to patna in modern day india). if u try to get materials related to Gupta Vanshas of India or prior to it, you might be able to know more about SATI.

Good luck for yr project.....u r hitting some interesting topics....

 

more to this sati discussion ;

in tribal rural area

of India where nuptials marriages from the early childhood always

happened take place, the bridge and bridgroom has been chosen by their

respective familly at the minimum age of 13th. Happened to be at times

when the young couple, the husband falls sick and past away, the young

widow left have but not to be sentence to death upon her will in a

very scarious ceremony. At the very 16th day of death of her husband -

the mourned period, a huge set up fire will take place in the village

and be wittness of all the villagers.
At the myriad of the stage, a fierce women, probably chosen from the

most senior ranked from the caste avail, will cut apart the mangal

sutra or symbolic wedding necklace from the widow body, her bangles

will be smash and break into pieces, no accessories will be allowed

then, and this widow will be covered with whites saree or cloth all

over her body and she will be reads mantra of Yallajeyum beforehand.

Finally she will be ask to surrender herself walk through the open

blaze fire to commitsuicide for her death, once she be exactly in the

fire, one of the ceremonial man will beat her body with wooden rods to

prevent the body remains to fritts or just let the body fells

down.....  

the irony parts is, if the death occurs only to the husband, the widow

have to immolates to death, but in contradictory if the wife is dead

then in 16th days after without hesitation the man can sneeze new

breath by marry a new wife.....

pic`s :

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=ie7&q=sati+in

+india&rls=com.microsoft:en-my:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-

8&rlz=1I7ACAW_enMY359MY359&um=1&ie=UTF-

8&ei=nvFuS83qIM2OkQWQo7nUBw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum

=4&ved=0CB4QsAQwAw

thank you for your inputs so far. My lecture covered little bit on Laws of Manu.

Manusmriti also known as Manava-Dharmasastra is the earliest metrical work of the Dharmasastra textual tradition of Hinduism. It is better known as Laws of Manu in English.
Dharmasastra or Laws of Manu is basically a source of religious law describing the life of an ideal householder and, second, as symbol of the summation of Hindu knowledge about religion, law, ethics, etc.

Obama i think you are in the right direction  when you said Kirantis are in fact Hindus.

Professor Sudarshan Raj Tiwari said that the Kirats came from the Indus-Saraswati Valley.
The Manusmriti identifies the Kiratas as one of the eleven tribes who inhabited the Indus-Saraswoti region. (The Brick and the Bull, 2002)

In Manu's Dharmashastra (X.44) Kiratas are mentioned as degraded Kshatriyas ,which meant that they were considered to be of advanced group of miliraty might but because the Kiratas did not conform with rules and norms of the Manava-Dharmasastra(Laws of Manu), they were degraded into lower position.

Now one of my assignment was to list some examples of Manava-Dharmasastra(Laws of Manu) and analysis these rules and norms that had to be carried out in order to retain the high-caste position. Failing to do so meant degraded into lower status as the Kiratas.
Now my question is what are these rules and norms that have to be carried out in order to retain the high status?
Is sati one of the form of ritual listed in laws of manu?
What are some things we observed according to Manava-Dharmasastra when living abroad that can
result us being degraded into lower status?

Thank you.

So far this is what i have learned so far. The varna(class) is a  Hindu term for caste, a social division into which a person is
born. There are four major castes in Hindu society: Brahmin, kshatriya,
vaishya, and shudra. The first three castes are considered
“twice-born.” Each Varna can be divided into a number of jatis. Below
these four varnas are the untouchables or simply dalits.

Today was a Mahashivaratri and i believed that many devotees are observing this rite in Nepal and India.

But one question why are dalits and low caste people not allowed to enter the temple?

Is it because of the laws of Manu?

Now again this social structure is not permanent. I believed a Brahmin can felled into shurda if he does not conform with the religious rite. For example the Kiratas who are recognized as Kshatriyas are degraded into lower status for not following some of the rites. The low caste are also promoted to higher level through gaining merits.

Now what are these rites that one have to follow in order to maintain high caste. Does anyone have any ideas?
I understood that Kirat society do not have varna system and did not used to practice even in vedic times. Is this one of the reason why the Kiratas became degraded Kshatriya.(Manu's Dharmashastra (X.44)
Another thing could be that Kiratas did not engage in sati and dowry system either hence they were seen as not conforming to vedic rules and norms, hence they were degraded.
In short, Kiratas were unorthodox Hindus.
But here's the question. Do you thing that having not practice varna-sati-dowry system was way better? The varna was the one that have really destroy the Nepali society. The dowry system on the other hand was also a evil culture.
I discussed this with my lecturer and she was flabbergasted.

Hope to see some inputs.
thanks

Comments are personal:



 Khas were either Buddhist.When
Sankaracharya defeated the Buddhist monk and thousand of Buddhist books  were buried. Since then Sanskrit Literature
emerge strongly and Brahman started various rules. They offered Khas as Chhetri
and 2nd in the row in the race hierarchy. Khas joined the tribe of Brahmin
may say under  rule of 
literate Brahmin.

Their weapon was the  Sanskrit language ,
and what ever written in Sanskrit were taken as holly books. In each era new
testaments in Sanskrit came and started to new rules just to degrade human
lives specially women and lower cast people.  They needed a kingdom and defender, Khas who
were the fighter placed as king but the kingdom was ruled by Brahmin in the
back. The actual ruler were Brahmin, kings were fighter and defender of the
territory.

The worst part is, as the population went illiterate, it was easier for them to
rule keeping layer of cast system within the society.



In every society from east to west such things had happened, some of them got
new ideas and moved ahead but we are still the same.

So do not forget the Actual rule of Brahmin in Indian peninsula and their grip on society. 

 

thank you syanjali. your inputs are much appreciated. Your comments relates to my next question too.
Who was ruling Nepal when Siddhartha Gautama came to the valley?
As far as concerned, the lecture gives some insight on why Buddhism were not able to strive in India though Siddhartha Gautama was a from Hindu society of Kshatriya group. Though Siddhartha Gautama brought his teachings to India, Buddhism really did not make any impact in India even after his death.
Ironically his teachings spread much to the other Asian nations.
So could some help me give some chronological event  of Siddhartha Gautama?

Thanks.

Have u guys seen this before ????

Coming to yr questions Crazyhorse, there must be plenty of chronological details about Buddha available in web. The verbal history, i remember reading as a kid is, Kirants used to rule Nepal. Hows the relation between then Nepal and Siddhartha Gautam's Dad king Suddhodhan is still a debatable subject. Buddha visited kathmandu valley around the time of 7th kiranti king. I think Jitedasti was the king of Nepal then. Kirantis ruled was over in the time of 14th kiranti king, Gasti. India was not an unified, greater india in the times of Buddha. It was ruled by different rulers and divided into different territories from Persia in the west to Bramhaputra River in east. Most powerful indian king was the king of Patliputra (near to patna). Alexander has not ascended to thorne in macedonia.

After Buddha, history got excited and statrted walking in faster paces(hahaha). Alexander(called sikkandar in india) defeats persian king and invades india. Alexander establishes his people as care taker in kandhar( present day kandhahar in afganistan) and moves to eastern part of india. In America's war in afghanistan, u have heard analysts saying afghanistan as a country where no invaders have won in the history. Kandhar was the place for great education then. Ancient economist chanakya had earned his SHIKHYA there and was a teacher there. He built a coalition of indian kings from different territories to fight against Alexander. The head of that coalition was ChandraGupta. After the demise of Alexander, ChandraGupta unites India with the help of Chanakya. Chandragupta's grand-son is King Ashok. Probably, u have seen the movie Ahoka. King Ashoka converts into Buddhist after kaling's war. He visits Lumbini and we still see that monument there in Lumbini. He visits Kathmandu too and leave her daughter charumati in Patan. Licchavis have already taken over Nepal.

For your religion class....have u ever wondered about Polythenisian Civilizations vs Monothenisian civilizations ( I hope, i have spelled them correctly)?

I had read somewhere Jung Bahadur's 3 wives committed sati in 1877. Chandra Shumsher abolished the practice in 1924. The practice might have been a little more common among high-profile upper caste families but it could be just that only the high-profile cases remained recorded in historial accounts.

Can someone help me give me some major events during the life of Buddha please?
Please also help me with the life and teaching of lord buddha.
If you have done research on Buddhism and life of Buddha care to share with me. That would be much appreciated.

crazyhorse

1. Madri, 2nd wife of Pandu, becomes Sati after the death of King Pandu in Mahabharat.

2. Sati Devi in Swasthani becomes a Sati when she could not tolerate her husband's (Shiva) insult by her own father.

3. Was not there a "Sati Ko Shrap" by a widow who becomes a Sati after her husband (a martyr) was executed by Ranas?

Back to your original questions:

Do you consider the "sati" ritual expression of the true sacrifice or not? - No! It was social evil rule established by devil leaders who thought the women have no place in society after the death of their husbands. So they made these widows to commit suicide.  These "pundits" wrote Sati incidents as normal ritual in religious books like Mahabharat, Swasthani, and different Purans to brainwash Hindu women so they kill themselves when they became widows.

Would you be for or against the legislation that would allow the sati ritual? - Most definitely. Sati tradition is evil.

How would you react if the Indian/Hindu woman would do the sati ritual here in the United States? - If a woman is coerced by others to become a Sati, the responsible people should be treated like murderers.  If the woman becomes Sati volunteerily, she was probably mentally too depressed.  People commit suicide for several reason ..

Now i found out Sati tradition existed even during Ramayan era, which existed even before Mahabharat time. When Vaali (Brother of Sugriv) dies in a battle with God Ram, Vaali's wife Tara wishes to become Sati.  

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/sati-discussion-contd-946122.htm